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-> -> -> Book 13

《卷十三 - Book 13》

English translation: W. P. Mei [?] Library Resources

魯問 - Lu's Question

English translation: W. P. Mei [?] Library Resources
1 魯問:
Lu's Question:
The Lord of Lu asked Mozi: "I fear Qi will attack me. Is there any remedy?" Mozi said: Yes, the sage-kings of the Three Dynasties, Yu, Tang, Wen, and Wu, were originally feudal lords of states of only a hundred li square. Yet, enlisting the loyal and practising righteousness, they acquired the empire. While the wicked kings of the Three Dynasties, Jie, Zhou, You, and Li, by estranging the loyal and practising wickedness, lost the empire. I wish your Lordship would reverence Heaven and the spirits above and love and benefit the people below; prepare plenty of furs and money and humble your speech to befriend all the neighbouring lords, and lead the state to serve Qi. Besides this, indeed nothing can be done.

2 魯問:
Lu's Question:
Qi was going to attack Lu. Mozi said to Xiang Zi Niu: To attack Lu is a great wrong on the part of Qi. Formerly, the Lord of Wu attacked Yue on the east and drove (Lord Gou Jian of Yue) to take refuge upon Guiji. He attacked Chu on the west and hold fast Lord Zhao at Sui. On the north he attacked Qi and brought Guozi back to Wu. The feudal lords then took vengeance and his people complained of the hardship and would not be commanded. Thereupon the state perished and the Lord of Wu was executed. Formerly, Zhi Bo attacked both the house of Fan and the house of Zhongxing, and absorbed all the land of the Three Jin states. The feudal lords then took vengeance and his people complained of the hardship and would not be commanded. Thereupon the state perished and he was executed. Therefore the attack of a large state on a small state is injury to both and the consequences of the wrong will always return to the large state.

3 魯問:
Lu's Question:
Mozi saw the Grand Lord of Qi and said: Suppose here is a sword. When it is tried on a man's neck it severs it swiftly. Can it be said to be sharp? The Grand Lord said it is sharp. Mozi said: When it is tried on several men's necks, it severs them swiftly. Can it be said to be sharp? The Grand Lord said it is sharp. Mozi said: Of course, the sword is (proved to be) sharp, but who will take the curse of the deed upon him? The Grand Lord said that the sword reaped the benefit but he who tries it will be visited by the curse for the act. Mozi continued : Now to capture a state, ruin an army, and destroy the people - who will be visited by the curse for this act? The Grand Lord looked down and up and deliberated, saying: "I shall be visited with the curse for this act."

4 魯問:
Lu's Question:
Prince Wen of Lu Yang was going to attack Zheng. Mozi heard of it and tried to stop him, saying to him: Suppose within the borders of Lu Yang the large cities should attack the small cities and the large houses attack the small houses, killing the people and carrying away the oxen and horses, dogs and hogs, cloth and silk, and grains and valuables. What would you say? Prince Wen of Lu Yang replied: "Within the borders of Lu Yang all are my subjects. Now, should the large cities attack the small cities and the large houses attack the small houses, carrying away their valuables, I should punish them severely." Mozi said: Now, Heaven possesses the whole world just as your Lordship possesses your state. But you are raising an army to attack Zheng. Shouldn't punishment from Heaven come to you? Prince Wen of Lu Yang said: "Why should you, sir, prevent me from attacking Zheng? I attack Zheng, in accordance with the will of Heaven. The people of Zheng have murdered their father for three generations. Heaven has been visiting them with punishment. It has caused them to be unprosperous for three years. I am only helping Heaven to carry out the punishment." Mozi said: The people of Zheng have murdered their father for three generations. Heaven has been visiting them with punishment. It has caused them to be unprosperous for three years. The punishment of Heaven is sufficient. Yet, you are raising an army to attack Zheng, proclaiming: "My attack on Zheng is in accordance with the will of Heaven." Suppose there is a man whose son is strong but insolent. So the father punished him with a ferule. But the neighbour's father struck him with a heavy staff, saying: "It is in accordance with his father's will that I strike him." Isn't this perversity?

5 魯問:
Lu's Question:
Mozi said to Prince Wen of Lu Yang: If a lord had attacked the neighbouring states, killed their people, carried away their oxen and horses, grains and valuables, a lord might yet record it on bamboos and silk and engrave it on metal and stone and write it up into maxims on the bell and the ting to hand down to posterity, saying: "None possess so much as I." Now, the unscrupulous common man also attacks neighbouring homes, kills their inmates, and takes the dogs and hogs, food and clothing. They would also like to record it on bamboos and silk and write it up into maxims on the vessels and dishes to hand down to posterity, saying: "None possesses so much as I." Is this permissible? Prince Wen of Lu Yang said: "According to what you have said then what the world takes for granted may not be right after all."

6 魯問:
Lu's Question:
Mozi said to Prince Wen of Lu Yang: The gentlemen of the world know only trifles but not things of importance. If a man steals a dog or pig, they call him wicked. But stealing a state or a city is regarded as righteous. This is similar to calling it white when one sees a little white, but calling it black when he sees much white. And this is what is meant when we say the gentlemen of the world know only trifles and not things of importance.

7 魯問:
Lu's Question:
Prince Wen of Lu Yang said to Mozi: There is a cannibal tribe on the south of Chu. When the first son is born they dissect and devour him. This is said to be propitious to his younger brothers. If he tastes delicious, he will be offered to the chief, and if the chief is pleased the father will be rewarded. Isn't this a wicked custom?" Mozi said: So is the custom in China. How is killing the father and rewarding the son different from devouring the son and rewarding the father? If magnanimity and righteousness are not observed, wherefore shall we condemn the barbarians for eating their sons?

8 魯問:
Lu's Question:
Upon the death of a favourite concubine of the Lord of Lu, somebody in Lu wrote an obituary for her. The Lord of Lu was pleased with it and employed the writer. Mozi heard of it and remarked: An obituary is but to narrate the ambitions of the dead. To employ the man because his obituary is pleasing is like making the wild cat pull a carriage.

9 魯問:
Lu's Question:
Prince Wen of Lu Yang asked Mozi: "Suppose somebody was recommended as a loyal minister. And he would bow down when I let him bow down; he would bend back when I let him bend back. Staying there he would be silent, and when called upon he would answer. Can this be said to be loyal?" Mozi said: To bow down when permitted, to bend back when permitted - this is but a shadow. To remain silent when let alone, to answer when called upon - this is but an echo. What would your Lordship get out of an echo or a shadow? According to my conception of a loyal minister, when the superior is at fault he should wait and warn; possessing a good idea he should give counsel to the superior without revealing it to the world; he should correct irregularities and lead in goodness ; he should identify himself with the superior and not ally himself with subordinates. So that goodness and excellences will be attributed to the superior and complaints and grudges lodged against the subordinates; so that ease and happiness be with the superior and trouble and worry with the ministers. This is what I call a loyal minister.

1. 是 : Inserted. 孫詒讓《墨子閒詁》
2. 所 : Inserted. 孫詒讓《墨子閒詁》

10 魯問:
Lu's Question:
The Lord of Lu consulted Mozi, saying: "Now I have two sons. One likes learning and the other likes dividing property for people. Which one should be crowned Prince?" Mozi said: We can't tell (just from this). It may be that they behave so just for the praise and reward of it. The fisherman's bait is not intended to feed the fish. Trapping a mouse with worms is not for the love of the mouse. I wish your Lordship would observe both their intention and consequences.

11 魯問:
Lu's Question:
There was a man in Lu who sent his son to Mozi to study. The son perished in a battle. The father blamed Mozi for it. Mozi said: You wanted to have your son trained. Now he had completed his training and died in battle. And you become sore. This is like trying to sell something, and yet becoming sore when it is sold. Isn't this peculiar?

12 魯問:
Lu's Question:
Among the rustic people living south of Lu there was a man by the name of Wu Lu. Making pottery in winter and farming in summer, he compared himself to Shun. Mozi heard of him and went to see him. Wu Lu told Mozi: "Righteousness is just righteousness. Wherefore all the verbosity? Mozi asked him: Now, does what you call righteousness possess power to serve other people and produce wealth to divide among the people? Wu Lu said that it does. Mozi continued: I have deliberated about this matter. I have thought of becoming a farmer and feeding the people in the world. If that could be successful I would become one. But when a farmer's produce is divided among the world, each person cannot get even one sheng of grain. Even if he can obtain, that much, evidently that cannot feed all the hungry in the world. I have thought of becoming a weaver and clothing all the people in the world. If that could be successful I would become one. But when a weaver's goods are divided among the world, each person cannot get even a foot of cloth. Even if he can obtain that much, evidently that cannot keep all who are cold in the world warm. I have thought of putting on armour and carrying a weapon to come to the feudal lord's rescue. If that could be successful I would become a soldier. Now it is evident that a soldier cannot hold out against a regular army. I concluded that none of these is as good as to familiarize myself with the Tao of the ancient sage-kings, and discover their principles, and to understand the word of the sages and be clear about their expressions; and with these to persuade the rulers and then the common people and the pedestrians. When the rulers adopt my principles their states will be orderly. When the common people and the pedestrians adopt my principles their conduct will be regulated. Therefore I think though I do not plow and feed the hungry or weave and clothe the cold, I have greater merit than those who plow and feed, and weave and clothe. Therefore I think my merit is greater than that of those who plow and weave though I do not do so. Wu Lu kept on saying, "Righteousness is just righteousness. Wherefore all the verbosity?" Mozi continued: Suppose the world does not know how to plow. Who has more merit, the man who teaches people to plow, or he who does not teach people to plow but simply plows himself? Wu Lu answered that he that teaches others to plow deserves more merit. Mozi said: In the attack of an unrighteous state, does he that beats the drum and urges the soldiers to fight on, or does he that does not beat the drum and urge the soldiers to fight on but only fights on himself deserve more merit? Wu Lu said that he that beats the drum and urges the soldiers to fight on deserves more merit. Mozi continued: Now the common people and the pedestrians in the world know little about righteousness. Naturally those who teach them righteousness deserve more merit too. Why don't you say so (in this case)? Would not my righteousness be advanced if I can encourage them in righteousness?

13 魯問:
Lu's Question:
After Mozi had paid Gong Shang Guo a visit, Gong Shang Guo recommended him to the Lord of Yue. The Lord of Yue was greatly pleased, saying to Gong Shang Guo: "Sir, if you can induce Mozi to come to Yue and instruct me I shall offer him five hundred li square of the land lying in the former state of Wu." Gong Shang Guo promised to try and so fifty wagons were made ready to go to Lu, and welcome Mozi. (Gong Shang Guo) told him: "When I tried to persuade the Lord of Yue with your principles he was quite pleased and said to me that if I could induce you to come to Yue and instruct him, he would offer you five hundred li square of the land lying in the former state of Wu." Mozi said to Gong Shang Guo: As you observe it, what is the intention of the Lord of Yue? If the Lord of Yue will listen to my word and adopt my way, I shall come, asking only for food according to the capacity of my stomach, and clothing according to the stature of my body. I shall just be one of the ministers. What is the use of any commission? On the other hand, if the Lord of Yue will not listen to my word and adopt my way and I should go nevertheless, I should then be selling my righteousness. As for selling righteousness I could very well do it in China, why should I then go out to Yue?

14 魯問:
Lu's Question:
Mozi was visiting Wei Yue. The latter asked: "Now that you have seen the gentlemen of the four quarters, what would you say is the most urgent enterprise?" Mozi replied: Upon entering a country one should locate the need and work on that. If the country is upset in confusion, teach them with the (doctrines of) Exaltation of the Virtuous and Identification with the Superior. If the country is in poverty, teach them with Economy of Expenditures and Simplicity in Funeral. If the country is indulging in music and wine, teach them with Condemnation of Music and Anti-fatalism. If the country is insolent and without propriety, teach them to reverence Heaven and worship the spirits. If the country is engaged in conquest and oppression, teach them with Universal Love and Condemnation of Offensive War. Hence we say, one should locate the need and work on that.

15 魯問:
Lu's Question:
Mozi had recommended Cao Gongzi to Sung. He returned in three years and saw Mozi, saying: "When I first came to your school I had to wear short jackets and eat vegetable soup. Even this I could not have in the evening if I had had it in the morning. And I had nothing to offer and sacrifice to the ghosts and spirits. Now, on your account my family has become better off. And I could respectfully offer sacrifice and worship ghosts and spirits at home. Yet several members of my household died off, the six animals do not breed, and I have myself been troubled with ailments. I doubt if your way is after all to be adopted." Mozi said: This is not fair. For what the ghosts and spirits desire of man is that when in high rank and receiving much emolument, he give up his position in favour of the virtuous; that when possessing much wealth he share it with the poor. How can the ghosts and spirits merely desire to snatch food and drink? Now, when in high rank and receiving much emolument you did not give up your position in favour of the virtuous. This is your first step to bad fortune. Possessing much wealth you did not share it with the poor. This is your second step towards misfortune. Now you serve the ghosts and spirits by merely offering them sacrifice; and you wonder whence come all the ailments. This is like shutting one out of a hundred gates and wondering whence the thieves entered. How can you invoke ghosts and spirits for blessing like this?

16 魯問:
Lu's Question:
The master of sacrifice of Lu offered one pig and asked for a hundred blessings. Upon hearing of it Mozi said: This cannot be done. To give others little but to expect much from others would make them afraid of gifts. Now one pig is offered and a hundred blessings are asked of the ghosts and spirits. They would be quite afraid of a sacrifice of oxen and sheep. Anciently, when the sage-kings worshipped the ghosts and spirits, they just offered them sacrifice and that was all. One would be better off to remain poor than become rich by offering a pig for sacrifice and asking for a hundred blessings.

17 魯問:
Lu's Question:
Peng Qing Shengzi said: "The past can be known, the future cannot." Mozi said: Suppose your parents met with misfortune a hundred li away. And there was just the margin of a single day. If they could be reached they would live, if not they would die. Here are a strong wagon and an excellent horse, and also a bad horse and a square-wheeled cart. And you are allowed to choose. Which would you take? It was replied that the excellent horse and the strong wagon would of course make for a more speedy journey. Mozi said: How then is the future not knowable?

18 魯問:
Lu's Question:
Meng Shan praised Prince Ze Lu, saying: "Formerly, in the uprising of Bo Gong, Prince Ze Lu was held captive. With axes around his waist and spears pointing at his heart, Bo Gong told him to be Lord and live or refuse and die. Prince Ze Lu said to him, 'What an insult to me. You have killed my parents and now bait me with the state of Chu. If it is not righteous I would not even take the whole empire, to say nothing of the state of Chu.' Thus he refused. Wasn't Prince Ze Lu magnanimous?" Mozi said: What he did was indeed difficult, but hardly magnanimous. If he thought the Lord had gone astray from the Tao, why not accept the offer and undertake the government himself? If he thought Bo Gong was unrighteous, why not accept the Lordship also, execute Bo Gong, and then return the Lordship to the Lord? Therefore I say what he did was indeed difficult, but hardly magnanimous.

19 魯問:
Lu's Question:
Mozi sent Sheng Zhuo to serve Xiang Zi Niu. Xiang Zi Niu invaded Lu three times, and Sheng Zhuo was three times with him. Hearing of this, Mozi sent Gao Sunzi to call him back, saying: I sent Zhuo there in order to cure pride and regulate insolence. Now, Zhuo draws a large salary and flatters his master. His master invaded Lu three times and he was with him every time. This is like whipping a horse by its martingale. I have heard that to preach righteousness but do it not is intentional commitment of wrong. It is not that Zhuo is ignorant. It is a case of victory of emolument over righteousness.

20 魯問:
Lu's Question:
Formerly the people of Chu and the people of Yue had a battle on the River. The people of Chu were with the stream in their advance but against it in their retreat. When success was in sight they advanced. But when defeat was confronting them they found it very difficult to retreat. On the contrary the people of Yue advanced upstream but retreated downstream. When success was in sight they would advance. And when defeat was confronting them they could easily retreat. With this advantage the people of Yue greatly defeated the people of Chu. Gong Shuzi came south from Lu to Chu, and began making implements for naval warfare which consisted of grappling hooks and rams. When the enemy were retreating they used the hooks. And when the enemy were advancing they employed the rams. And the weapons were made according to the length of these hooks and rams. The weapons of Chu thus were all standardized, and those of Yue were not. And, with this advantage, the people of Chu greatly defeated the people of Yue. Gong Shuzi was proud of his cleverness and asked Mozi: "There are the implements for grappling and ramming in my boats of war. Do you have such a device in your righteousness?" Mozi said: The grappling and ramming device in my righteousness is more excellent than your implements in the boats of war. In my scheme, I pull with love and push with respect. If you do not pull with love there can be no intimacy. If you do not push with respect there will be rapid desecration. And desecration without real intimacy will soon end in separation. Therefore mutual love and mutual respect mean really mutual benefit. Now you pull people up to stop their retreat, but they would also pull you up and stop your retreat. You push people back to stop their advance, but they would also push you back to stop your advance. The mutual pulling and pushing are just mutual injury. Therefore the device of pulling and pushing in my righteousness is more excellent than the implements of pulling and pushing in your boats of war.

21 魯問:
Lu's Question:
Gong Shuzi constructed a bird from bamboo and wood and when it was completed he flew it. It stayed up (in the air) for three days. Gong Shuzi was proud of his supreme skill. Mozi said to him: Your accomplishment in constructing a bird does not compare with that of the carpenter in making a linch-pin. In a short while he could cut out the piece of wood of three inches. Yet it would carry a load of fifty shi. For, any achievement that is beneficial to man is said to be beautiful, and anything not beneficial is said to be clumsy.

22 魯問:
Lu's Question:
Gong Shuzi confessed to Mozi: "Before I saw you, I wished to take Song. Since I have seen you, even if Song were offered me I would not take it if it is unrighteous." Mozi said: Before you saw me you wished to take Song. Since you have seen me even if Song were offered to you you would not take it if it unrighteous. This means I have given you Song. If you engage yourself in doing righteousness, I shall yet give you the whole world.

公輸 - Gong Shu

English translation: W. P. Mei [?] Library Resources
1 公輸:
Gong Shu:
Gong Shu Ban had completed the construction of Cloud-ladders for Chu and was going to attack Song with them. Mozi heard of it and set out from Qi. He walked ten days and ten nights and arrived at Ying. He saw Gong Shu Ban. The latter asked him what he wanted of him. Mozi said: Some one in the north has humiliated me. I would like to have you kill him. Gong Shu Ban was displeased. Mozi persisted, offering him ten jin. Finally Gong Shu Ban said: "My principle is incompatible with murdering people." Thereupon Mozi rose and bowed twice and spoke: Now, let me explain myself. While in the north I heard you were building ladders to attack Song. Now, of what is Song guilty? The state of Jing has land to spare but is short of people. To destroy what is scarce in order to strive for what is already plenty cannot be said to be wise. Since Song is innocent, to attack it cannot be said to be magnanimous. To fail to make an effort according to what you know cannot be said to be loyal. To make the effort without obtaining (the desired result) cannot be said to be effective. To hold a principle that forbids the killing of few but allows that of many cannot be said to be understanding the fundamental categories. Gong Shu Ban became convinced. Mozi argued further: Then why would you not stop it? Gong Shu Ban said that could not be done as he had already promised the Lord. Mozi said: Why not then present me to the Lord? Gong Shu Ban agreed.

2 公輸:
Gong Shu:
Mozi saw the Lord and said: Suppose there is a man who, putting aside his elegant carriage, desires to steal his neighbour's shattered sedan; putting aside his embroidery and finery, desires to steal his neighbour's short jacket; putting aside his meat and grains desires to steal his neighbour's husks. What kind of a man would this be? The Lord said that he must be suffering from kleptomania. Mozi continued: The land of Jing amounts to five thousand li square while that of Song is only five hundred, this is similar to the contrast between the elegant carriage and the shattered sedan. Jing possesses Yun Meng which is full of rhinoceroses and deer. The fish, tortoises and crocodiles in the Yangtse and the Han Rivers are the richest in the empire. While Song is said to possess not even pheasants, rabbits, or foxes. This is similar to the contrast between meat and grains and husks. In Jing there are tall pines, spruces, cedars and camphor trees, while Song has no tall trees at all. This is similar to the contrast between embroidery and finery and the short jacket. When your ministers and generals set out to attack Song, it seems to me there is the same strategy. I can see, my Lord, you will be violating righteousness to no advantage. The Lord said: "That is all very well. But Gong Shu Ban has already constructed the Cloud-ladders for me, and I must capture Song."

3 公輸:
Gong Shu:
And he turned to Gong Shu Ban. Mozi untied his belt and laid out a city with it, and used a small stick for weapon. Gong Shu Ban set up nine different machines of attack. Mozi repulsed him nine times. Gong Shu Ban was at an end with his machines of attack while Mozi was far from being exhausted in defence. Gong Shu Ban felt embarassed and declared: "I know how I can put you down, but I would not tell." Mozi also said: "I know how you can put me down, but I would not tell." The Lord of Chu asked what it was. Mozi replied: Gong Shuzi's idea is just to have me murdered. (Apparently,) when I was murdered, Song would be powerless at defence. And she would be subject to your attack. However, my disciples Qin Hua Li and others numbering three hundred are already armed with my implements of defence waiting on the city wall of Song for the bandits from Chu. Though I be murdered, you cannot exhaust (the defence of Song). The Lord of Chu said: "Well, then let us not attack Song any more."

4 公輸:
Gong Shu:
On his way back, Mozi passed through Song. It was raining and he sought shelter in a pass. But the guard of the pass would not let him in. Thus it is said: "The merit of the man who cultivates himself before the spirits is not recognized by the multitude. On the other hand, he who strives in the open is recognized."

URN: ctp:mozi/book-13